Fuck you all, you smug bastards.
Fuck the people who think I have no will of my own, fuck the people who think I'm a victim. Fuck the ones who think that if I don't think like them I must be in denial.
Because obviously it doesn't matter how long I took to research and decide or how carefully I have been to avoid pushing my way down other people's throats. It doesn't matter that I hadn't been on a diet for fifteen years or that I had personal experience of so many of the psychological traps or that I have, in fact, achieved what I wanted to achieve, even though that isn't what I'm supposed to want. All that doesn't matter because if there is social pressure then it is impossible for anybody to ever make a rational decision again (unless it's to agree with you). I am a victim, and victims are in denial. Like all those women who like porn - you know the sort.
Well, fuck you, and all your horsies too.
Fuck the people who think I have no will of my own, fuck the people who think I'm a victim. Fuck the ones who think that if I don't think like them I must be in denial.
Because obviously it doesn't matter how long I took to research and decide or how carefully I have been to avoid pushing my way down other people's throats. It doesn't matter that I hadn't been on a diet for fifteen years or that I had personal experience of so many of the psychological traps or that I have, in fact, achieved what I wanted to achieve, even though that isn't what I'm supposed to want. All that doesn't matter because if there is social pressure then it is impossible for anybody to ever make a rational decision again (unless it's to agree with you). I am a victim, and victims are in denial. Like all those women who like porn - you know the sort.
Well, fuck you, and all your horsies too.
(no subject)
(no subject)
I stand by everything I said yesterday. It is not duplicitous to congratulate you on achieving something difficult whilst railing against the culture.
Frankly I'm fed up with this. I despair of the culture, and people on diets take it as a personal attack on their personalities, and counter-attack me. What is to be done?
(no subject)
Attempt at conciliation
I certainly didn't take your initial post as a personal attack, but I did get hurt by being (or feeling) lumped together with all women who want to diet. And it did feel very much like there was a prevailing view that nobody should diet, and those that do are victims of the culture. If you and Ergotia say that that's not what you think, thoug, I'll believe you...
Re: Attempt at conciliation
The other conciliatory suggestion is more problematic - the question of dieting itself. The problem is that I do genuinely believe that no-one should diet, because I do genuinely believe that they do harm to the body in the long term. Now, this may, in time, be proved false, but there seems a reasonable amount of evidence to support it at the moment. However, I would also say that I appreciate that this is not where the world is at. In many ways, my outlook on this is analogous to the old idea of socialist countries. From your knowledge of history I'm sure you're aware that the old "communist" countries were technically speaking "socialist". That is, they were socialist countries whose stated aim was (philosophically if not in reality) to finally achieve a communist society. Hence the battlecry "Forward to Communism!"
So my attitude to dieting is a bit like this. A little dieting is necessary at present because people want to and decide to do it, but I am pushing at every stage for the Nirvana where nobody diets. Perhaps we'll never get there, and perhaps I'm wrong anyway, but in the meantime that is my position.
Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, and I'm sorry I can't exactly meet your requirements exactly, but hopefully this will be enough that we can meet half-way.
Re: Attempt at conciliation
It seems to me (butting into the middle of a discussion!) that there's been a blurring of the boundaries between 'diet' - meaning a short-term radical reduction in food intake, usually along with a change to specific 'diet' foods - and 'diet' - meaning a long-term change in eating patterns to smaller and healthier portions along with an awareness of nutrition. I think the former does a great deal of harm; I think the latter would be beneficial to most people in the Western world.
From your knowledge of history I'm sure you're aware that the old "communist" countries were technically speaking "socialist".
No they weren't - they were Stalinist. But that's a whole nother question!
Re: Attempt at conciliation
Hmm. Maybe it would do me good to try and write out what
I think, because sometimes I slide further into "no-one
should ever diet under any circumstances" than I want to.
I think my attitude is basically that I believe dieting is usually harmful in the long term, but metabolisms vary sufficiently that I consider it possible that this is not true for everyone, and I am also aware that it can have short-term benefits. I believe many of those benefits can be achieved in other ways, but that not all methods are equally convenient to every person in every context.
I believe that given my own personal history, I will be healthier if I do not diet and concentrate instead on increasing my trust in my own body's instincts, increasing the quality of what I eat and finding forms of exercise that I enjoy. The first two of those are sometimes in conflict, which I am in the process of figuring out how to resolve.
I believe that others have the right to reach their own conclusion on where the balance of the risks and benefits lies for them, and to implement their conclusion, and indeed I include in that the right to choose to self-harm [*], through dietary restrictions as through anything else.
I share your concerns about the difficulty of making such choices freely in our current culture, but I don't believe it's impossible, and I prefer not to second-guess the choices of a particular individual, or the freedom of those choices [*], unless either I am responsible for them (my kids, say) or they have invited my opinion. I have acquired more knowledge of how diets work in the short-term than was good for me, and if someone has made an informed choice to diet, I am usually willing to share anything from my experience that seems like it might help them to achieve their goal in the most healthful way possible, provided I think I can do it in a way that won't add to the social pressure on them to diet (and if I can't, I consider that a fault in my own communication skills).
On the other hand, I think activism that increases general awareness of the risks of and alternatives to dieting increases both the ease of making a free choice to diet and the ease of making a free choice not to diet, and is therefore a Good Thing.
I also think that activism that makes women who choose to diet feel guilty for not being feminist enough, or variations on that theme, decreases the ease of making either choice freely, and is therefore a Bad Thing [*].
[*] I am not suggesting that anyone on this thread or your original one is doing any of these things; they are all patterns I have sometimes come across elsewhere.
Re: Attempt at conciliation
When I think of the years of my life spent with many others in feminist consciousness raising groups and Marxist self criticism groups painfully and earnestly discusssing false consciousness *among many other topics* and trying to support each other apparently to accomplish precisely nothing I also despair.
I am still enraged and excruciatingly upset by the simplistic statement that diets work backed up by selectively chosen research with the obvious implication that anyone "overweight" chooses to be so, presented in the context of a serious debate among women by a *man* who has never had a weight problem in his entire life, but none of this refers to you.
Re: Attempt at conciliation
Re: Attempt at conciliation
Re: Attempt at conciliation
Re: Attempt at conciliation
It’s a really emotive subject, especially for us lasses, because we are bombarded with so much stuff about it from every angle and then you add to that people feeling that they are absolutely entitled to make comments about our body size as part of everyday conversation, whether it be criticism (you are/this bit of you is bigger) or praise (you’re smaller). Then we have to deal with what’s in our own heads which might be conflicting thoughts one week or even one day after another. Some days I think I’d like to have Jennifer Aniston’s body, other days I’d like to say “Ha! Ha! Jennifer, you can never eat chips, can you? Perhaps if you worked out less you could concentrate on your acting more and then you wouldn’t be the least funny character in ‘Friends’”.
Today? Today I’d like to be able to calm down on the debate a bit. So in parting I will offer that I see the women who have contributed to discussion here, including yourself, as powerful people who’ve at various times done amazing and productive things and who I admire. What does that have to do with anything? Perhaps that we’re of so much more value for ourselves than for what we might weigh that we should at least allow ourselves to relax a little about it.
Disclaimer one – I said subject is emotive for women, but there are men I know who have issues with their weight also.
Disclaimer two – I do not claim to speak for all women when I talk about conflicting thought processes around body size.
Trish – backing against post with blindfold on and (candy) cigarette in mouth and waiting.