There's bats in the belfrey the windows are jammed [purplerabbits]

Now that's what I call justice! - Dodgy landlord ordered to live in one of his own dodgy buildings until it's up to code

Zoe William says exactly what I think about drinking while pregnant - except she's actually pregnant and not working for a children's charity so she's in a better position to get away with it. She has done her reading, though, which is refreshing and produced undeniably intelligent conclusions like:

Physiologically and sociologically, it just does not make sense that small amounts of alcohol are bad for you when pregnant. As Dr Eric Jauniaux, professor of obstetrics and foetal medicine at the Royal Free hospital in London, points out: "Alcohol is mainly metabolised by the liver, and only what's left will be met by the placenta. The amount that could reach the foetus in a glass of beer or a glass of wine is negligible. I would be much more concerned with breastfeeding and drinking." Jauniaux, incidentally, has been studying transfer through the placenta for the past 20 years, is one of the leading national experts on the matter and yet is never quoted in connection with any of the scare stories you read on alcohol and unborn babies. And sociologically, of course, Jauniaux reminds us: "How long have people been drinking wine or beer, thousands of years?"

And her more political conclusion: "Abstinence messages never work. Everybody knows they don't work, and I would go one further and say that social conservatives never intend them to work - they intend, rather, with their stringency, to effect a severance between the state and the individual. Don't come crying to us if it all goes wrong. We have already warned you to be perfect."

Well quite.

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I was just about to post the same Zoe Williams quote about abstinence messages! I probably will anyway, in fact; it needs propogating.

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Indeed.

And as far as I can tell, the technical literature agrees. Obviously getting regularly hammered is not advised, but two or three units a day is mentioned as a reasonable level - which about what is recommended as a maximum anyway.

Except that three units a day is above the guidelines for non-pregnant women (3x7=21), and I don't think anyone has successfully argued that pregnant women process alcohol better ... two or three units two or three times a week on the other hand seems reasonable, and will be helped (one hopes) by the new unit labelling on bottles and cans (though I worry that it will be like other packaged products ... a packet of peanuts containing 70% of your daily allowance of salt *per serving* and then discovering that the packet you've just eaten is 1.6 servings! So an alcopop or a glass of wine may be 1.6 units and so having a second one, you have to stop half way through or go over the guideline ... I think other people would be like me and finish off the second portion (well, I don't drink or eat peanuts, but I do eat chocolate etc. so I know the theory and practice!))

... of course the guidelines for number of units for women (and for men) is severely debateable!

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Current DoH advice is "and women should not regularly drink more than 2 - 3 units of alcohol per day", so the two are fairly similar. Not drinking every day is, as you say, also good advice.

It's a rather imprecise message to give -- is the limit two units per day or three? Giving a range of "2 to 3" is meaningless. And what is "regularly" supposed to mean? If I get plastered every year on new year's eve, that's regular, isn't it?

Bettter guidelines would be more precise, e.g.: no more than 4 units per day, and no more than 15 units per week. (I've no idea if those limits are sensible, it's just an example).

Not that I take alcohol limits seriously; the limit is 3-4 per day for men, which seems ridiculously low when 2 pints of Budvar is something like 5.2 units. I guess that makes me a binge drinker, then.

It's not meaningless, it's just not exact. And it may be inexact for good reasons. Sometimes giving people very precise instructions is counterproductive. There certainly have been very precise limits suggested in the past, and the change may have been deliberate and well-informed.

Exactly. Plus, not all women are created equal. There's a great deal of variation in body size, general health and the rate at which alcohol can be metabolised. Setting a precise level and saying 'all women should drink no more than 2 units per day' would quickly be seen as reductionist nonsense.

When I was at the DH back in 1994, there was some degree of internal kerfuffle about what they were going to do about the publication of some research results that indicated that the recommended guidelines weren't just set too low, but that most people could drink almost double that amount and still be - in general - healthier than if they didn't drink at all.

I don't think they ever did change either the guidelines or (the sneaky option) the size of a unit.

but that most people could drink almost double that amount and still be - in general - healthier than if they didn't drink at all.

I'll drink to that!

But on a more serious note this illustrates how govmt guidelines are based on pooitics not science -- i.e. not wanting to be seen to encourage alcohol. Which is a good reason to ignore them.

Although if you're going to ignore them there's a case to be made for finding your own safe limits by doing the reading, and I expect that would still be less than you (or I) drink...

My body already has a mechanism for notifying me if I have drunk too much; it is called a "hangover"

I just cut-and-pasted your last paragraph to quote it here before discovering you have already done so. I love it.

We have already warned you to be perfect.
So don't drink, don't be overweight, sleep when we tell you, exercise when we tell you, you will obey YOU WILL OBEY ... whoops, got confused between government control and the Daleks ... :-)

Part of the problem here is the media much prefers to put out sensationalist scare stories than less-dramatic, but more truthful, reports.

Thanks for linking to that article! It was really helpful and confirmed a lot of my own reading on the subject.

I couldn't agree more. I find it rather patronising that because they are unsure and because they felt the previous message didn't get through as well as they would like, they have concluded that the best course of action is to recommend abstinence rather than present the information required to make an informed choice.

Is it just me, or is there an increasing amount of guidance aimed at pregnant women in the general press?

The sheer amount of public pressure to be perfect from conception to weaning can't be at all helpful. It'd be a brave pregnant woman who walked into an establishment and ordered a rare steak with a blue cheese sauce and a glass of wine.

purplerabbits

There's bats in the belfrey the windows are jammed

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